Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS? [Forums - C4 Technical]

C4 Technical > Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	« 1 (2)
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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#51
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Inspect that china bearing carefully before installing. I had one break at the thin metal flange, and the replacement was cracked in the same spot. Looks like they just fold the inner sleeve over and that's supposed to hold the entire thing together. Extremely poor design. I've never seen what a OEM one looks like.
	Posted on: 7/5 23:37
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LD85	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#52
Senior Guru Indianapolis, Indiana 420 Posts Member since: 2005/9/15 17:00	Sounds like the use a cheap low tensile strength steel, but from China, what else should be expect?
	Posted on: 7/6 5:29
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#53
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Quote: jhammons01 wrote: 12mm Hex.....are you trying to take out the Pivot Ball from the bell housing? If so, it may not need to move. Unless it is scared from the TO Bearing...I'd leave it be. Your Fork just clips on and off of the ball. If you take the Pivot Ball off, you can replace it with the adjustable pivot Ball http://www.jegs.com/i/Lakewood/620/15501/10002/-1?CT=999 This widget allows you to set your pedal exaclty where you think it should be.....I can't use one however, due to the fact that there is only about a 32nd if an inch gap in between the bell housing and tranny housing.....how would you "adjust" it??? I'd have to pull the tranny to take advantage of that feature. Of course I could attach the bell housing and clutch assembly......and test it there......but then I'd have to make a clutch alignment tool that was longer than the plastic one.....If you didn't have that tool.....once you push the clutch in without the tranny...the disk would fall out of alignment and you'd have to take the clutch back apart to realign it. JHammons, I thought you needed to remove the fork to get over the new TO bearing. I do, don't I? I didn't try just sliding it back. Will it travel far enough to the DS to get over? I have the clutch and PP back in with the new TO. Thanks!
	Posted on: 7/6 12:57

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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#54
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Thanks CC. If you look at the pics thats exactly where she let go. I half thought of just welding it back together!
	Posted on: 7/6 12:59

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jhammons01	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#55
Senior Guru 999 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 17:00	Quote: Eagle223usa wrote: JHammons, I thought you needed to remove the fork to get over the new TO bearing. I do, don't I? I didn't try just sliding it back. Will it travel far enough to the DS to get over? I have the clutch and PP back in with the new TO. Thanks! huh? If the tranny is out, then you can pop the fork off the pivot ball whenever.....but that is on the 4x3...I think the ZF is different with the way the TO bearing is. CC will correct me
	Posted on: 7/6 13:49

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BrianCunningham	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#56
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 5472 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 16:00	It pops off the fork But you need to be REAL CAREFUL about it. The fork is easy to bend. If your removing the bellhousing all together It best to leave it attached the the ball and screw the ball in towards the engine till it disconnects from the bellhousing. You can then remove the bellhousing then the fork. to put it back together, screw the ball back onto the housing, put the fork on the in retracted position, and slide it back over once the bellhousing is installed. worked 3 times so far. BTW if you take it apart, check the rear main seal, great time to replace it.
	Posted on: 7/6 14:17
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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#57
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Quote: jhammons01 wrote: If the tranny is out, then you can pop the fork off the pivot ball whenever.....but that is on the 4x3...I think the ZF is different with the way the TO bearing is. CC will correct me You know I will. But it's easier if you don't post tech advice on transmissions you don't know about. 4+3 clutch setup is worlds apart from the ZF.
	Posted on: 7/6 17:08
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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#58
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Quote: Eagle223usa wrote: JHammons, I thought you needed to remove the fork to get over the new TO bearing. I do, don't I? I didn't try just sliding it back. Will it travel far enough to the DS to get over? I have the clutch and PP back in with the new TO. Thanks! It depends on the exact location of the fork. My car is a converted '85, but when I had the LT1 pressure plate, the fork was at such an angle that I could only remove the bellhousing by first undoing the 12mm hex pivot stud. This made it a bitch as I had to reinstall the pivot stud and fork AFTER putting the bellhousing on. My current setup, 85 with a ZR1 pressure plate, I believe gives a fork angle more similar to that of a stock stock LT1/4 car. With this setup, I can remove the fork and bellhousing without removing the pivot ball. Brian Cunningham's post seems to confirm this. Anyways.... just try pulling the bellhousing off while sliding the fork off the t/o bearing. If that's not possible, then just turn the pivot ball in most of the way. If that still doesn't do it, then turn the pivot ball all the way in till it comes loose. It's just that it's a bitch to start the pivot ball and fork from the backside of an installed bellhousing, so you'll want to avoid that extra step if possible. Also the fork is pretty damn thick steel, I think you'd have to be a real dumbass to bend it.
	Posted on: 7/6 17:13
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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#59
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	I can't say for sure whether the pivot ball needss a 10mm or 12mm hex actually unless I looked in my toolbox. Here's a shot of my broken t/o bearing: I'm especially fond of it because it stranded me in norcal, missing 3 days of work, pissing off my boss, and also got a metal splinter in my cornea which damaged my eyesight a little. Attach file: zf to bearing.jpg (118.68 KB)
	Posted on: 7/6 17:38
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#60
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Thanks again Guys, Especially CC. I didn't try putting the bellhousing on with the fork . It doesn't look like it will fit. Oh, and CC I have an appointment with the eye doctor on Friday. Yep, metal in my left eye. Damn.
	Posted on: 7/6 19:23

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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#61
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Well, that was more Napa's fault than anything. They sold me the smaller version of the throwout bearing, misboxed, and that metal got in my eye at some point during the 12 attempts to stab the blacktag trans into it, at 3am (because that was the only time it was below 90*F outside). Some people learn the hard way I guess. Does your old bearing have the plastic inner sleeve? That is the blue tag unit for mid94-96 cars.
	Posted on: 7/6 20:27
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jhammons01	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#62
Senior Guru 999 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 17:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: You know I will. But it's easier if you don't post tech advice on transmissions you don't know about. 4+3 clutch setup is worlds apart from the ZF. I'm starting to figure that one out. I'd like to see one apart to see how it differs from what I am dealing with....just to be curious.
	Posted on: 7/7 7:17

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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#63
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Yes my old bearing has the plastic inner sleeve, so does the new one.
	Posted on: 7/7 11:29

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BrianCunningham	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#64
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 5472 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 16:00	Quote: Eagle223usa wrote: Thanks again Guys, Especially CC. I didn't try putting the bellhousing on with the fork . It doesn't look like it will fit. Oh, and CC I have an appointment with the eye doctor on Friday. Yep, metal in my left eye. Damn. You can do it with the fork on. you need to have it in the retracted position away from the clutch once it's bolted on, you can slide it onto the throwout bearing. How did you do it?
	Posted on: 7/7 13:17
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ Mods Complete:Rod end suspension with Penskes & Hardbar dual rate coilovers. In progress:Vortech blown 383 with AFR heads / Wilwood 6pot brakes President: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#65
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Brian, I didn't, yet. I'm waiting for the tool I thought I needed. I have court all day tomarro and then work so I will try that on Friday or Saturday. Thanks again.
	Posted on: 7/7 18:49

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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#66
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	I found the hydralic hose at Ecklers for $133 shipped. Got home early so I'm headed out to see if Brians right about reinstalling the bellhousing without totally removing the fork. I hope it works as the 12mm hex hasn't arrived yet.
	Posted on: 7/8 9:11

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jhammons01	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#67
Senior Guru 999 Posts Member since: 2007/10/28 17:00	Find a hydraulic hose maker in your area before you order that hose. You may save yourself a bundle.
	Posted on: 7/8 10:46

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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#68
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	You may also have it done same day too!
	Posted on: 7/8 10:49
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#69
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	I had the best of intentions but now the Camaro won't start so I can't get to the Vette. Oh well weekends coming.
	Posted on: 7/8 11:15

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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#70
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	I tried 3 different places, Didn't like then plan from the only one who would attempt it. Oh well, already ordered. BTW, what kind of Gearlube should I refill with. It was filled with Redline, not sure what weight. Thanks.
	Posted on: 7/8 11:17

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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#71
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	I haven't heard anything negative about the Redline MTF and I recall reading they list it as a substitute for the GM fill. (Although technically the current GM fill superceded the original fill that was spec'd for these.) I use Pennzoil synchromesh in mine. Way cheaper and easier to get than GM synchromesh and from what I researched it's exactly the same fluid. Synchromesh isn't very thick though, so it's not quiet in mine, but I don't have a dual mass flywheel. Some use the Castrol TWS 10w60, it's much thicker/quieter than synchromesh, but the viscocity breaks down quickly anyways, and I question it's compatibility with the synchros.
	Posted on: 7/8 15:22
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Josh	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#72
Guru Baltimore, MD 549 Posts Member since: 2007/12/31 16:00	I run the Castrol in mine, but I'll probably switch to something else next time around. I haven't had any problems, but I think it shifts better with other fluid. It could be the placebo effect, but I'm still going to switch out the fluid.
	Posted on: 7/10 15:46
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#73
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	No tools or parts yet, My pittbull killed my home comp. These are the times that try mens souls.
	Posted on: 7/11 12:58

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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#74
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Wha wha wha. Get yourself a violent skin infection and swap that trans during a heatwave with the wrong parts. Actually I think you got the heatwave already, lol. I need to find the link to my throwout bearing saga. Oh the memories.
	Posted on: 7/12 16:20
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#75
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Ok, CC. I was about 104 degrees in my garage, I'll crank the heat up net time! I did get about 3lbs. of chromoly steel out of my left eye on friday, feels much better. What kind of skin infection do you recommend??
	Posted on: 7/12 17:55

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89Vette	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6? OR why I think Centerforce SUCKS!	#76
Guru 89 Posts Member since: 2008/1/15 16:00	Quote: There is a good chance that the TO Bearing may not have been put on the fork properly. Yes, it can slip off if it not on just right. It is hard to explain over the web....or even in person...but once you "see" it, you'd understand completely. Since I'm about to launch a new DMF/clutch/motor setup, I'd like to solicit for a 2nd set of eyes. (Especially if getting the TO Bearing positioned correctly isn't as easy as it looks.) The only thing I noticed now that mine's mounted is the semi-circle retainer spring is facing 3 O'clock vs downward. I am assuming this doesn't matter. Other than the fact I need to recenter my clutch disk (using the pilot tool), does anyone see anything wrong with my installation -- especally TO/Fork engagement.
	Posted on: 7/12 19:57

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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#77
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Looks good, although I think I see a hairline crack in the throwout bearing. Just kidding.
	Posted on: 7/13 13:22
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#78
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Well, the hydralic line just arrived from Ecklers. Now all I need is the tools and the stud locking nut and lube and hydralic fluid and a prescription.
	Posted on: 7/13 13:46

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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#79
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Stud locking nut? You don't need that. By all means if you have one, install it, but otherwise who cares.
	Posted on: 7/13 13:51
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#80
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	I was told by Bill at ZR51 that it was nessecary. Anyhow, mine evaporated because I had the heat set so high to compete with you CC. BTW, why am I still a newbe?
	Posted on: 7/13 17:56

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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#81
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Good question. Let me fix that.
	Posted on: 7/13 18:03
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#82
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Thanks CC! Nice one.
	Posted on: 7/13 18:10

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89Vette	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#83
Guru 89 Posts Member since: 2008/1/15 16:00	Quote: CentralCoaster wrote: Looks good, although I think I see a hairline crack in the throwout bearing. Just kidding. What where? Ahhhhh!!!! Just kidding too. That's not a hairline crack. That's a deliberate flaw I cut into the fork and PP to test a theory posted by Anethes recently. He said if a PP failed while driving, the driver would know it by his missing feet! Wow. That would suck!
	Posted on: 7/13 21:40

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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#84
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Yes 89Vette he was referring to my comment that maybe the PP had come apart. The noise I heard was the TO disassembleing itself inside the bellhousing. Really though, someone needs to build a better TO for our cars.
	Posted on: 7/13 23:07

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Josh	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#85
Guru Baltimore, MD 549 Posts Member since: 2007/12/31 16:00	I don't think that fork is seated on the throw out bearing completely. I vaguely recall the fork sliding on slightly further than that. On my car, the inner part of the bearing is octagonal, try turning the bearing a little while applying left to right pressure on the fork. Some times I stick a large flat head screwdriver in the slave cylinder hole and use that to apply pressure against the throw out bearing while I dink with it. I've also had success using the hole in the fork and a screwdriver against the bell housing to apply pressure. It's hard for me to explain, but the pressure should be pushing the fork towards the 3 o'clock position. You're not pulling on the bearing as if to disengage the clutch, you're pushing the fork onto the bearing.
	Posted on: 7/16 12:11
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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#86
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	Looks like the fork is hitting it exactly at 12 and 6 oclock to me, which is exactly where it should be. If it's not on the flats of the throwout bearing neck, it would not go on far at all.
	Posted on: 7/16 12:32
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Josh	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#87
Guru Baltimore, MD 549 Posts Member since: 2007/12/31 16:00	Everyone I've done the fork has to be kind of popped on. It doesn't look right to me, but I didn't put it together so maybe it's right where it needs to be, I dunno. I'm just suggesting he check it before putting the transmission back in.
	Posted on: 7/16 17:21
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#88
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	I can't seem to get the fork onto the bearing while it is attached to the bellhousing. It will not retract far enough. I got the right 12mm hex and it just stripped right out. Now I'm worried about damaging the bellhousing. I might just send it to Bill at ZR51 and have him do it. This is becoming tedious.
	Posted on: 7/17 6:14

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Josh	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#89
Guru Baltimore, MD 549 Posts Member since: 2007/12/31 16:00	You stripped the hex on the stud because it needs to be turned the opposite direction that you think it does. It needs to be turned to the right in order to loosen. The stud operates like a regular bolt, it is not reverse thread, but you have to turn it into the bell housing to loosen it.
	Posted on: 7/17 16:11
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#90
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Hey Josh, I did turn it right.(correctly) I talked with Bill from ZR51 for about 20 mins on my cell. He outlined the pitfalls of this sucker. According to Bill if it was over torqued previously it cracks and locks into place. Which mine was and did. The remidy has something to do with a cutoff wheel and another special socket. I think I'll just pay him to fix it before I need a bellhousing. I did make a trip over to the parents in laws garage where my stuff is stored and found my new GM slave and GM hydralic fluid. I needed the fluid anyways. Oh well, at least I'm making progress. I still need to order gearlube. I took the redline out, was thinking of using the same product again but did some research and found that alot of guys are now using Amsoil synchromesh and reporting good results. I do have plenty of time to think about it! Again, thanks for all the advice and help.
	Posted on: 7/18 7:06

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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#91
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Well my bellhousing is fixed and on it's way back from Arizona. Bill (Zfdoc.com) really helped my out with this. All I'm missing now is the lube and a skin infection! Thanks again guys.
	Posted on: 7/25 10:04

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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#92
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Well I took Thursday off and assembled the tranny and hydraulics. Finished her up yesterday and finally took her for a spin, just around the block. Seems to be working. Thanks for all the help!
	Posted on: 7/31 11:45

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Mekanic	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#93
Registered Vendor Tampa Bay Florida 740 Posts Member since: 2008/2/24 16:00	this thread really reaffirms my decision to pay someone else to do my clutch haha
	Posted on: 7/31 14:45
	_________________ ~Rich Polo LT4 Yea tho I walk through the valley in the shadow of rice, I shall fear no turbo, for torque art with me.
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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#94
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	It's really easy after the 4th time, I promise.
	Posted on: 8/1 0:47
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Josh	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#95
Guru Baltimore, MD 549 Posts Member since: 2007/12/31 16:00	Ya, after a couple times it gets easier.
	Posted on: 8/2 17:36
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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#96
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	For the record, I've never worn out a clutch on my car. But I am on my 6th clutch. While you're in there, you know?
	Posted on: 8/2 22:17
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FATED	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#97
Guru Newb Texas 157 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 16:00	I don't think the adjustable pivot ball will work on a pull clutch because the friction area is on the part of the ball facing the transmission.
	Posted on: 8/3 10:11
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Eagle223usa	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#98
Guru with Eyes of Steel Pgh.Pa 111 Posts Member since: 2007/10/5 17:00	Well a couple weeks later and she still works fine. I will probably tear her down again this winter for a new higher quality TO and another disc. But for now she runs well. Thanks for all the help!
	Posted on: 8/12 8:48

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CentralCoaster	Re: Has anyone done a clutch on a ZF6 and why I think Centerforce SUCKS?	#99
Webmaster San Diego, CA 8099 Posts Member since: 2007/10/27 17:00	What hydraulics are you running?
	Posted on: 8/12 8:52
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