How to find the right valve springs... [Forums - C4 Technical]

C4 Technical > How to find the right valve springs...
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Dale1990	How to find the right valve springs...	#1
Guru Conway, AR 98 Posts Member since: 2008/10/23 8:28	Old thread 86 Vette. 383. 113 heads done by LPE in the early 90s. Thanks to numerous other projects (fuel pumps, heater cores, life, etc) I'm finally back to this project. Since I'm not totally sure what I'm doing, I'm adding a bunch of pics so if anyone sees anything amiss, please let me know - click for ginormous size. I pulled the old spring out. I'm no expert but I think this might be bad... Hi-Res Here is a shot of the underside of the rocker. I don't see any evidence of impact... Hi_Res Here is the valve w/o the spring or rocker. I tried to get as close to the tip as I could (I'd like a macro lens for this). I'm not sure what a valve float strike would look like but this looks kinda normal to me. Any other ideas? Hi-Res Now for the questions. Here is a shot of the valve spring mic installed. There is no up/down movement of the valve. The cap and keys are installed but the oil shield is not. Am I doing this right? If so, I get about 1.94". Does that make sense? EDIT: I measured with the shims in place. I suppose a real measurement would need those taken out. Hi-Res I haven't taken a spring in to check the open/closed pressure yet. Any ideas or advice is welcome. Thanks!
	Posted on: 7/30 15:07

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bogus	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#2
Webmaster Torrance, CA 10964 Posts Member since: 2005/9/6 17:00	I agree, the spring is broken. The rest looks fine... you dodged a bullet there.
	Posted on: 7/30 17:12
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Weavsvet	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#3
Senior Guru 392 Posts Member since: 2008/9/16 2:08	Just one more reason I prefer double springs.
	Posted on: 7/30 18:56
	_________________ 1996 Corvette Coupe,AFR 195 street Eliminators,Edelbrock LT4 Air Gap intake manifold,9.5" 2800 stall,SW LT headers, LE 226/230.565.565/111 lsa cam,1.6 rr's,EWP, X Pipe, Stock Exhaust,Elec.Cutouts,Dana 44/3.45, Tune by LT1 PCM Tuning, Solomon Kostelni...
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Dale1990	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#4
Guru Conway, AR 98 Posts Member since: 2008/10/23 8:28	Better lucky than good, sometimes. I would guess if it wasn't for the inner spring (damper?) it would have eaten the valve and I'd have a whole world of hurt.
	Posted on: 7/30 18:57

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rklessdriver	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#5
Guru Newb Woodbridge, VA 252 Posts Member since: 2008/1/3 16:00	Those little 1.250" dia springs usually set up around 1.750". Depending on which spring they have 45lbs (stock) to 110lbs (Z28) seat pressure.... Some of the solid lifter flat tappet oval track ones (sold as .600 lift ones)set up at 1.800". They have 125lbs seat pressure. 1.940" set up height is way too tall... Also the shims go under the spring seat - not on top of it. What does the bottom of the retainer look like??? The O-Ring oil seal looks like its been getting squished pretty good between the retainer and the top of the guide.... Will
	Posted on: 7/30 19:03
	_________________ 1992 Corvette. Gen II LT1 383. 11.6 SCR, Manley Platinum 2618 pistons, Scat Q Lite 4340 rods, Eagle 4340 44lb pendlum undercut crankshaft. AFR 210 Elims, Mike Jones Custom hyd roller, Converted 2925 Super Victor ported by JDS Induction.
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Dale1990	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#6
Guru Conway, AR 98 Posts Member since: 2008/10/23 8:28	Pic of cap and oil shield... Hi-Res For fun, here is the head and valve w/o the shim or spring seat... Hi-Res I put the shim under the spring seat although I don't really like how loose it fits there. I remeasured and got a better look at the mic this time and I get 1.946". Pic of what I'm doing is below. Shim is sitting directly on the head, spring seat on the shim, mic on the seat, cap sits in a groove on the mic (see pics in first post), keys are seated on the valve tip (like all the other valves), busted spring is there for reference. No up/down play, valve is snugly closed. If my numbers don't make sense then what am I doing wrong? Bear in mind this is first time I have ever touched a valve mic so be gentle Hi-Res
	Posted on: 7/30 20:05

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vis_croceus	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#7
Guru PA 201 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 16:00	Not sure what the point of this exercise is - if you don't know what springs you have, then what does measuring the height they were installed at accomplish?
	Posted on: 7/30 22:00
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vis_croceus	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#8
Guru PA 201 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 16:00	Quote: rklessdriver wrote: Those little 1.250" dia springs usually set up around 1.750". Depending on which spring they have 45lbs (stock) to 110lbs (Z28) seat pressure.... Some of the solid lifter flat tappet oval track ones (sold as .600 lift ones)set up at 1.800". They have 125lbs seat pressure. 1.940" set up height is way too tall... Would a Melling VS-730 fit that head? OD=1.22, installed height=1.946 He mentioned Melling in his other thread, so I just looked at their catalog...
	Posted on: 7/30 22:04
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Dale1990	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#9
Guru Conway, AR 98 Posts Member since: 2008/10/23 8:28	It was suggested in the other thread that this info would be needed to choose the right springs. I can get the Melling part# that we installed last time we broke a spring if it would help. It won't be until maybe Monday or Tuesday, though. To be blunt, all I want to know is what springs I need for this engine. So far I've managed to break one of the originals that LPE put on and one of their replacements. LPE said they were stock springs - I don't know and I don't trust them at all. All I want is a working engine that doesn't require new springs every 10k miles.
	Posted on: 7/30 23:47

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PeteK	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#10
Moderator Nanticoke, Pa 1123 Posts Member since: 2006/7/2 17:00	Quote: Dale1990 wrote: It was suggested in the other thread that this info would be needed to choose the right springs. I can get the Melling part# that we installed last time we broke a spring if it would help. It won't be until maybe Monday or Tuesday, though. To be blunt, all I want to know is what springs I need for this engine. So far I've managed to break one of the originals that LPE put on and one of their replacements. LPE said they were stock springs - I don't know and I don't trust them at all. All I want is a working engine that doesn't require new springs every 10k miles. You need to know what the open and closed heights are, and the size of the spring pocket. You have already established that, so you are in good shape there. Maybe I missed it, but what are the cam spec's? With those two pieces of info picking a spring becomes easy.
	Posted on: 7/31 5:25

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Durango_Boy	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#11
Elite Guru Columbia, MO 1877 Posts Member since: 2009/1/30 13:54	I agree, you cam card will tell you what springs you need every time.
	Posted on: 7/31 8:21

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Dale1990	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#12
Guru Conway, AR 98 Posts Member since: 2008/10/23 8:28	LPE said the cam is the 219 - they didn't have part numbers way back then, though. The specs should be .560" lift intake/exhaust with 1.6 rr's according to research by Churchkey in the other thread. I'm not opposed to setting up a dial indicator to make sure if it would be better.
	Posted on: 7/31 8:30

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pr0zac	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#13
Master Guru down near the beach 719 Posts Member since: 2008/10/20 16:28	the bottom of the retainer where the spring rides is suppose to be flush with the top of the mic not down inside it. that is probably whats throwing your measurement off.
	Posted on: 7/31 8:34
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BrianCunningham	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#14
Senior Guru Boston, MA for the most part :) 5472 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 16:00	nice thing about dampers, that's what saved you. That's what's BAD about beehive springs. When they break, there's nothing else holding the valve back.
	Posted on: 7/31 9:32
	_________________ Polo Green 95 LT1 6-spd http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevcp74/ Mods Complete:Rod end suspension with Penskes & Hardbar dual rate coilovers. In progress:Vortech blown 383 with AFR heads / Wilwood 6pot brakes President: http://BayStateCorvetteClub.com
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rklessdriver	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#15
Guru Newb Woodbridge, VA 252 Posts Member since: 2008/1/3 16:00	Quote: pr0zac wrote: the bottom of the retainer where the spring rides is suppose to be flush with the top of the mic not down inside it. that is probably whats throwing your measurement off. Absolutely correct. Your spring retainer does not have a large enough OD to work on the mic correctly... It's fitting down in that "machined step" in the middle of the mic.... It should sit on the top edge. At this point you could try and offset the mic to one side a bit so that the retainer catches on the mic in the proper place. You'll have to be careful not to pull it up too tight and cock the retainer. Not sure if the guide is small enough to allow this thou... You could also meaure the depth of the machined step in the mic and subtract it from your 1.940 measurement. Last option is to buy a snap gauge set and a 6" dial caliper and use them to measure the set up height. Dale1990 - I understand your fustration. We are all doing our best to get you the correct info, but you have to understand that I can see the parts you have (which are all stock SBC) except the springs and I know for a fact that there is NO way your measurement can be correct unless the valve stem is broken in 2 peices (and that isn't the case).... Now that I can see the pic of the retainer on the mic from the top - I can verify that Prozac is dead on as to why your measurement is so far off. It's not a big deal, sometimes companies make these tools and they don't always work correctly with the parts we have. Try the suggestions I gave you above. Once you have the set up height measured correctly I can give you a spring part number that will work. Since LPE says the cam is a 219 we will work off that asumption. Your research is correct - .560 lift with 1.6's. Will
	Posted on: 7/31 9:44
	_________________ 1992 Corvette. Gen II LT1 383. 11.6 SCR, Manley Platinum 2618 pistons, Scat Q Lite 4340 rods, Eagle 4340 44lb pendlum undercut crankshaft. AFR 210 Elims, Mike Jones Custom hyd roller, Converted 2925 Super Victor ported by JDS Induction.
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vis_croceus	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#16
Guru PA 201 Posts Member since: 2007/12/29 16:00	Quote: Dale1990 wrote: To be blunt, all I want to know is what springs I need for this engine. OK from the way the thread was going I thought you were trying to diagnose the failure. Retainer going down inside is a common issue. Just subtract the distance from the step to the lip.
	Posted on: 7/31 11:13
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Dale1990	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#17
Guru Conway, AR 98 Posts Member since: 2008/10/23 8:28	Quote: rklessdriver wrote: Quote: pr0zac wrote: the bottom of the retainer where the spring rides is suppose to be flush with the top of the mic not down inside it. that is probably whats throwing your measurement off. Absolutely correct. Your spring retainer does not have a large enough OD to work on the mic correctly... It's fitting down in that "machined step" in the middle of the mic.... It should sit on the top edge. ... You could also meaure the depth of the machined step in the mic and subtract it from your 1.940 measurement. Will Thanks guys! That makes sense. I picked up a caliper (Harbor Freight to the rescue) and the step is 0.150" so that makes the height 1.790" then. Sound more reasonable? On a tangent... odd that that machined step fit the cap so well it made sense that the cap should be in there rather than above on the top lip. I did double-check with the caliper and sho-nuff the scale is accurate to the top lip and not the inner step.
	Posted on: 7/31 12:46

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Stl94LT1	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#18
Guru Newb 95 Posts Member since: 2007/12/28 16:00	Thanks guys! That makes sense. I picked up a caliper (Harbor Freight to the rescue) and the step is 0.150" so that makes the height 1.790" then. Sound more reasonable? Much more reasonable.
	Posted on: 7/31 12:59
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flyboy	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#19
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 1139 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 5:47	Are you going to be using the oil shields? Just curious.
	Posted on: 7/31 13:22
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rklessdriver	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#20
Guru Newb Woodbridge, VA 252 Posts Member since: 2008/1/3 16:00	1.790 is a more realistic measurement... If you add in the .030 thickness of the spring oil sheild - your close to what it should be. Here are 2 valve springs that will work for you. http://www.competitionproducts.com/Ze ... Valve-Spring/products/56/ They are the same spring except the more expensive one has been electro polished (on the surface) which extends spring life. At 1.790 you'll have about 130lbs seat pressure. Fine for a hyd roller like the LPE 219. At .560 lift you will be at 1.230 which is about 385lbs. Also fine for a hyd roller like the LPE 219. The spring coil binds at 1.100 so you have .130 left in the spring which is plenty. 3 other things: 1. I suggest you get rid of the oil shields. They are unessecary weight that the spring has to carry. No one uses them on performance applications for this reason. 2. Buy a set of hardened valve locks. They are cheap insurance against a dropped valve. http://www.competitionproducts.com/He ... ve-Stem/productinfo/4232/ 3. Get rid of the O-Ring oil seals. Put a set of PC valve guide seals on it. I can see your heads have been cut for them. PC seals reduce oil consumption and reduce weight that the valve spring has to carry. Take the caliper and measure the OD of the guide. It should be .531 or .500 and then buy the correct size seals. http://www.competitionproducts.com/VT ... -Valve-Seals/products/46/ Good luck. Will
	Posted on: 7/31 13:45
	_________________ 1992 Corvette. Gen II LT1 383. 11.6 SCR, Manley Platinum 2618 pistons, Scat Q Lite 4340 rods, Eagle 4340 44lb pendlum undercut crankshaft. AFR 210 Elims, Mike Jones Custom hyd roller, Converted 2925 Super Victor ported by JDS Induction.
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flyboy	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#21
Elite Guru Westmont, Il. 1139 Posts Member since: 2008/9/28 5:47	Quote: rklessdriver wrote: Put a set of PC valve guide seals on it. I can see your heads have been cut for them. PC seals reduce oil consumption and reduce weight that the valve spring has to carry. Take the caliper and measure the OD of the guide. It should be .531 or .500 and then buy the correct size seals. http://www.competitionproducts.com/VT ... -Valve-Seals/products/46/ Good luck. Will You are recommending the P.C.'s for the exhaust valves too then? I had them on mine and then changed back to the umbrellas (on the exhausts), but I think I'm overly cautious .
	Posted on: 7/31 14:06

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rklessdriver	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#22
Guru Newb Woodbridge, VA 252 Posts Member since: 2008/1/3 16:00	Quote: flyboy wrote: You are recommending the P.C.'s for the exhaust valves too then? I had them on mine and then changed back to the umbrellas (on the exhausts), but I think I'm overly cautious . Yes. I recommend PC seals on Intake and Exhaust. Will
	Posted on: 7/31 14:12
	_________________ 1992 Corvette. Gen II LT1 383. 11.6 SCR, Manley Platinum 2618 pistons, Scat Q Lite 4340 rods, Eagle 4340 44lb pendlum undercut crankshaft. AFR 210 Elims, Mike Jones Custom hyd roller, Converted 2925 Super Victor ported by JDS Induction.
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Dale1990	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#23
Guru Conway, AR 98 Posts Member since: 2008/10/23 8:28	Cool! Thanks for the recommendations. I'll probably place an order later this week and hopefully get the car back on the road soon. Be nice to drive it instead of look at it. On the valve locks, do you know if that is $5 per valve, per cylinder or for all 16 valves? The pic suggests per cylinder - 2 valves.
	Posted on: 8/2 6:12

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rklessdriver	Re: How to find the right valve springs...	#24
Guru Newb Woodbridge, VA 252 Posts Member since: 2008/1/3 16:00	Quote: Dale1990 wrote: Cool! Thanks for the recommendations. I'll probably place an order later this week and hopefully get the car back on the road soon. Be nice to drive it instead of look at it. On the valve locks, do you know if that is $5 per valve, per cylinder or for all 16 valves? The pic suggests per cylinder - 2 valves. Dale Your welcome. Take your time and be sure to double check your set up heights (espc with the new locks). 1.790 to 1.800 is perfect for those springs. If you start getting near 1.770 you will need to use a thinner shim or no shim at all (but you must still use the spring seat/locator)... You don't want to end up with much more than 400lbs open pressure. On the locks - I'm pretty sure they sell them in packs of 16... So you would need to buy 2 packs (32 locks total). Their site use to say for sure and I know it's in my Comp Products book - however I'm in SoCal for business and have no way to look it up for you.... Luckily they are not Summit (or Jegs) and their tech line is actually very knowlegeable about what they sell. They will be able to tell you right away. Will
	Posted on: 8/2 19:37
	_________________ 1992 Corvette. Gen II LT1 383. 11.6 SCR, Manley Platinum 2618 pistons, Scat Q Lite 4340 rods, Eagle 4340 44lb pendlum undercut crankshaft. AFR 210 Elims, Mike Jones Custom hyd roller, Converted 2925 Super Victor ported by JDS Induction.
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