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#1 poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
turbotim23 Posted on: 2010/2/10 15:24
Hi this spring I need to rebuild my front end on my 93 corvette.I'm planning on trying autocross with the car but it's mostly a street car. Can anyone give advice on what bushings to use. I've read that delrin bushings are quieter than poly but won't last as long as delrin is harder and tends to wear or warp out of shape [oblong] over time [just what I need with a street car]. Thinking of using Energy suspensions poly kit maybe as price is right and might be ok with grease fittings to keep bushings lubed and quiet. Is that a good one to use? I've heard that even some of the poly ones wear quickly. If I were to put grease fittings how would you do it? I guess you drill in middle between the two bushings and drill through the steel center bushing also? Thanks Tim

#2 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
CentralCoaster Posted on: 2010/2/10 15:39
It's the not the material that makes the polys squeak, it's the dimensions, at least with Energy Suspension. The shoulders are too wide and they bind up when bolted in place and also cause the bolts to loosen up eventually. Narrow up the aluminum slightly or take some material off the outer face of the poly until they press in flush with the inner sleeve and it will work fine. Up front, this applies to the lower control arms only.

I think with the poly you're only supposed to lube the inner part where the steel sleeve goes, and not the outer part. I don't remember exactly as its been awhile, but it'll say in the instructions. I would not bother with grease fittings, just weakens the aluminum.

FWIW, I can't recommend a rear bushing upgrade at all. For that I'd either leave it rubber or go with spherical rod ends. The links need to be allowed to pivot in 2 axis' and the polys or delrin don't really allow that. Check banski on the left sidebar for a kit, also VB&P and some others have them.

#3 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
BillH Posted on: 2010/2/10 15:51
Yea, what CC said.

And I'd talk to Gary Hoffman about the characterestics of delrin. I'm fairly sure he's making C5 shock mounts with it.
He knows his stuff about materials.
www.hardbarusa.com

#4 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
BrianCunningham Posted on: 2010/2/10 16:09
who are you autocrossing with?

just changing your bushing material will bump you up a class in most clubs.

#5 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
Matatk Posted on: 2010/2/10 18:25
I have the poly in the rear for now, and my advice would be look into the banski kit. CC said it best in his post.

Matthew

#6 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
CentralCoaster Posted on: 2010/2/11 0:08
How would they even know in auto-x? Anyways isn't there an exception for parts that are discontinued?

#7 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
BrianCunningham Posted on: 2010/2/11 9:42
Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
How would they even know in auto-x? Anyways isn't there an exception for parts that are discontinued?


local event may not care, but tech does have a way of telling.

I know people who have got nailed on it.

Welcome to racing!

#8 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
turbotim23 Posted on: 2010/2/11 16:14
Thanks for the replies. I was looking at Energy suspension as I can buy just the control arm bushings from them as that is all I need to finish the front end.I already have poly swaybar and shock bushings. Wasn't worried about autocross class as there are other things hurting me there anyway,c5 brakes,bigger swaybars,headers etc. I don't know if I'd try poly without grease zerts. I don't like drilling alum. arms either but every search I do on poly bushings comes up with them drying out after about 6 months and either making noise or binding up even damaging alum arms. Thought about cutting grooves on inside of bushings and pushing grease from side with pin tip on grease gun. Thanks Tim

#9 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
turbotim23 Posted on: 2010/2/11 16:34
on rear I was going to wait till Banski does anther group buy to get his arms for the rear rather than use poly bushings there.Still debating that a little, using rod ends on the street even with the seal savers. Thanks Tim

#10 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
SpectatorRacing Posted on: 2010/2/11 17:56
Delrin is not good for the street. They're hard as a rock so your car will shake apart. They also wear out.

I have part numbers at home for all of the poly bushings, front and rear, on the vette. If you need them let me know.

#11 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
CentralCoaster Posted on: 2010/2/11 20:00
Tim, you're not listening. They don't make noise or damage the arms because they are drying up or because they are poly. They do it because they are too wide and bind and chafe against the metal bracket holding them in place, this compresses the material instead of the metal sleeve and also doesn't leave any room for the grease. The snot that energy suspension provides in their kit is as good as it gets for bushing lube.

#12 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
CentralCoaster Posted on: 2010/2/11 20:04
Spec, why is the bushing material an issue for ride quality? IMO if the bushing works properly it will allow the suspension to articulate, and let the spring absorb the energy (and the shock to dissipate it), instead of your spine.

A binding bushing transmits some of the road force directly to the chassis and your spine, bypassing the suspension.

Spherical rod ends have zero compliance but the back end of my car rides smoother than it ever did with the stock or poly bushings. I didn't fully realize it until riding in a Z51 with stock bushings recently. So I don't understand why there'd be issues with a delrin bushing if it has the proper dimensions... on the front arms at least, which only rotate in 1 axis.

#13 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
Aboatguy Posted on: 2010/2/11 21:42
Quote:

CentralCoaster wrote:
Spec, why is the bushing material an issue for ride quality? IMO if the bushing works properly it will allow the suspension to articulate, and let the spring absorb the energy (and the shock to dissipate it), instead of your spine.

A binding bushing transmits some of the road force directly to the chassis and your spine, bypassing the suspension.

Spherical rod ends have zero compliance but the back end of my car rides smoother than it ever did with the stock or poly bushings. I didn't fully realize it until riding in a Z51 with stock bushings recently. So I don't understand why there'd be issues with a delrin bushing if it has the proper dimensions... on the front arms at least, which only rotate in 1 axis.


I agree changing my dog bones for Banski
Rod end trailing arms markedly improved my ride quality over polys...

#14 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
tjpreul Posted on: 2010/2/11 22:29
I went with poly on the front because of price and ease of replacement in the future if needed. On the back I have Banski. At first I was going to use poly, but after looking at how the links work toghether I changed my mind. You want it to move freely so the spring and shock can do the work. By having two links from the front, two from the side plus one for the toe. The bushings try to keep each link in a straight line, so the side is fighting with the front.

#15 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
dan0617 Posted on: 2010/2/12 10:06
I just installed polygraphite bushings from PST in the rear. Performance Suspension Technologies. They are polyurethane but impregnated with graphite. Price was really good on them and reviews I found from searching online were all good. Unfortunately I don't have any personal feedback yet as my car is still on jackstands.

#16 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
SpectatorRacing Posted on: 2010/2/12 10:36
My understanding is that as they wear they physically shrink due to the compression; things get loose, and the suspension is not able to function as designed. I guess I'm guilty of propagating information based on hear-say, as this is not personal experience. I use heim joints in most of my suspension.

#17 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
BrianCunningham Posted on: 2010/2/12 13:55
I bought Del-Alum (Delrin & Aluminum) greaseable fitting for my front lower control arm.

The delrin is the bearing surface, the alum is so it does not have to be as thick.

in the rear you want rod ends to allow the suspension to move

#18 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
turbotim23 Posted on: 2010/2/12 14:36
I agree Baski arms in rear are a better choice and that's what I going to do as I can afford it. I've read that the reason delrin is bad as a street suspension bushing is because they are so hard they get hammered and over time get flattned and deformed. Poly bushings have a little more give to them but I'm sure some of them are better than others. I was hoping someone could give an idea how long they used[on the street] either delrin or poly bushings or rod ends in the rear and if they had any problems? I'd like graphite impregnated bushings, I'll check with PST about their bushings. On the energy suspension bushings is the problem that they bind up against frame to front and rear when bolts are tightened? Thanks

#19 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
BrianCunningham Posted on: 2010/2/12 15:01
it's actually more C4 specific

the suspension components need to more in 2 separate directions

a ball joint or rod end can do that.

a bearing can only flex along an axis

a rubber bushing is only meant to flex in one axis as well, but since it's compliant, it will flex in other directions as well.

the stiffer poly won't let it do it was much.

#20 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
turbotim23 Posted on: 2010/2/13 9:08
Well that makes sense.The one thing that worries me about rod ends is how long they will last on the street.Have any of you used them for a long time? I worry about dirt getting in them, yes I know you can put seal savors to help keep them clean. I've read that teflon in the rod end will also help wipe the dirt out and make it last longer. Do all rod ends have teflon or do you have to special order them that way? Thanks Tim

#21 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
BillH Posted on: 2010/2/13 10:09
Quote:

turbotim23 wrote:
Well that makes sense.The one thing that worries me about rod ends is how long they will last on the street.Have any of you used them for a long time? I worry about dirt getting in them, yes I know you can put seal savors to help keep them clean. I've read that teflon in the rod end will also help wipe the dirt out and make it last longer. Do all rod ends have teflon or do you have to special order them that way? Thanks Tim


Rod ends vary in quality and not all are teflon lined. Banski uses good ones. Teflon lined are not a special order part, readily available.

The teflon lined are very dirt resistant because of the tight interface between the teflon and the steel surface.

The seals will help keep dirt out but aren't totally necessary. The seals were origionally just used on dirttrack and offroad cars.

Don't worry about dirt getting into them. They will last a long time ( IIRC, CC. has 10k miles on his Banskis already).
I don't run them on the street but I do have a vintage racecar that has rodends on it that are 25 years old and still tight. It's rare when I have to replace one that's worn out.

#22 Re: poly or delrin suspension bushings on the street?
CentralCoaster Posted on: 2010/2/13 12:36
I would probably recommend the dirt seals for a daily driver. I don't have them though.

I've had mine on for a year and a half now, about 8,000 miles on them. (Not a garage queen, I just have too many vehicles and not enough of a commute.) Car sits outside and the dew sets on it every morning.

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